It doesn’t surprise me in the least that Jordan Peterson and his ARC organisation are nothing more than controlled opposition, as has now been decisively demonstrated by two articles by Michael Ginsberg and Ursula Edgington and a video from Sonia Poulton.
Nov 27, 2023·edited Nov 27, 2023Liked by Paul Cudenec
Excellent essay, I may put up excerpts on my own substack.. However, it's not centralized industrial state capitalism which is the driver - that's just the means. The driver for this process is the growth of capital, arising out of interest on debt. A debt/interest driven economy is an example of exponential growth, and the continuation of that is impossible on a planet with finite recoverable resources - and the centralized control needed to sustain that economy is also dependent on exponential growth, because that control structure only consumes, it does not produce. The way out lies in decentralization of power to the greatest possible extent, the end of debt financing dependent on interest payments, and a return to sustainable systems such as regenerative agriculture and the localized manufacture of goods from locally-sourced materials.
I'd be quite wary of the current crop of internet "influencers" and those who are a product of social media, who position themselves as leaders, or as members of leadership vanguards, no matter what "good" they may claim to do. This is especially the case if they were erstwhile former members of the old centralized power structures, and especially of its "intelligence community", such as Malone and Dugin... I'm glad you figured out Dugin, he has so many people fooled, but his heritage is solidly supporting the power of the centralized state over the individual, see https://tec.fsi.stanford.edu/docs/aleksandr-dugins-foundations-geopolitics
For quite some time, I've said that if you want to see what your leader looks like, go look in a mirror. Figure out your guiding principles and abide by them, you need no one else to tell you what to think or to do.
Yes, the driver is, as you say, "the growth of capital, arising out of interest on debt". And the physical means by which this growth comes about is industrialism, whose "development" is the nothing other than the development of capital. If interest on debt is the (semi-)hidden way in which capital expands, industrialism is its very visible and concrete face.
Or, to put it another way, if capital is the murderer, then industrialism is the act of murder itself. Identifying the culprit is one thing, stopping the crime is another, even more urgent, necessity!
And the act of seeking to increase return on capital, i.e. profit, in order to not go into default on debt - which provides the basis for industrialism - is the motive for the crime, the driving force. Go into default on your bonds and your interest rate goes up, skip a dividend or cancel it altogether, and stock value rapidly decreases... so you have to always increase earnings per share because a quarterly earnings report which shows flat growth - or even worse, negative growth, has bad effects on stock values and the longevity of corporate CEOs... And recessions - periods of decreased or negative growth in GDP - have bad effects on the career longevity of politicians. And all of this growth is both dependent on energy and is an exponential process, so growth requires exponential increase in the amount of energy converted from a useful form into a non-useful form - and with finite and non-renewable energetically-dense resources, this cannot be continued - there are hard limits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZA9Hnp3aV4
"The driver for this process is the growth of capital, arising out of interest on debt. A debt/interest driven economy is an example of exponential growth, and the continuation of that is impossible on a planet with finite recoverable resources - and the centralized control needed to sustain that economy is also dependent on exponential growth, because that control structure only consumes, it does not produce." - Spot on!
We need a paradigm shift. Not in terms of nature knowledge per se, but how we organise our lives, what our priorities are.
This change extends beyond merely enhancing our knowledge of nature and the environment. It fundamentally challenges and reimagines how we structure our daily lives, our communities, and our societal systems. The essence of this shift lies in reevaluating and realigning our priorities to embrace a holistic approach that integrates individual well-being, community empowerment, and environmental stewardship.
This also implies a significant transformation in our economic systems, moving away from extractive and exploitative practices towards regenerative and sustainable models. It advocates for human-centric designs and practices that respect the environment and enhance the quality of life for all.
I think this paradigm shift - or at least a start on it - can be found in Christopher Alexander's work "A Pattern Language" -https://www.patternlanguage.com/ - you can get an idea of it from this table of contents - https://www.patternlanguage.com/apl/twopanelnlb.htm ... I've had a copy since if first came out so long ago, when I was an undergrad.
The paradigm shift you are referring to is what I have described as Life Design. It goes beyond human-centric design to incorporate universal optimum need states that, when synchronised, maximise the potential of all life.
I am very grateful for this discussion. My peace propositions include Life Source which describes a Peace Economy (my definition of peace is the synchronisation of universal needs for all life)…but I haven’t properly understood the pervasive destructiveness of all manner of centralised power (I am too idealistic). Your sharing is optimising my consciousness. Thank you all 🙏🏼
Fantastic essay - I think that THIS is actually the key problem which the 'opposition' in general faces if we want to ever achieve anything concrete. It is strange but a lot of otherwise very skeptical people (when it comes to the 'system' at least) simply cannot fathom the idea that any effective dissident movement or organisation will be targeted for infiltration. Their refusal to believe this basically makes it inevitable - as any criticism of their new 'tribe' basically marks out the questioner themselves as a shill! I have written a bit on my Substack about how I think the gibberish spread about supposed 'Common Law' solutions amongst the truth movement (as opposed to effective mass action) is part of just such an infiltrate/discredit operation as you have described in your essay although that is just one of the numerous ways that this insidious tactic is used by the State and its agents!
It is most difficult to trust anyone outside of your inner circle. The anti-humans have indoctrinated the masses and infiltrated almost every aspect of our lives. Perhaps the best opposition to the tyrannical slavery engulfing the lands is best done on an individual level. As soon as we form groups and hierarchies, a type of cultism ensues and we find our individuality lost in the masses once again.
There is no one to lead us out of this maze. The moment you succumb to the desires of a leader, you have lost your freedom. This is how all governments work. Establish a prime leader then frighten the citizen into thinking and believing he is lost without that leader.
It is easy for the anti-humans to control the masses who for the most part all share similar thoughts, patterns and desires. The same with the anti-anti-humans (us) who will be another group to be targeted. We see the anti-humans attacking us on all levels and therefore maybe the best opposition is to resist them individually where they cannot gain control of a group.
How can it be? Humanity has tolerated atrocities, crimes against humanity, censorship, wars, torture, lies/propaganda, ecocide, spying on the public, ethnocide, torture of Assange, etc. forever. Is it not clear that psychopaths/insane criminals with the Nazi/Eugenicist idealogy rule the world?
Perhaps since this has been the case for centuries, no one notices. I see the bourgeois classes living their seemingly superficial, comfortable lives, celebrating Thanksgiving, attending sporting events, preferring to ignore geopolitics and things outside their bubbles, the poor struggling for their existence, and all living for the self.
Is it so difficult to see that who we are is Life, the animating spirit that we share with all living entities. We are in the form of human with our particular kind of consciousness, which allows us to be the only animal with the possibility of living ethically. Yet we don't. Instead we live the paradigm of all the other animals ("might makes right"). This has proven to be a grave error, an abomination, not using the gifts that we have been given and we are having to pay a steep price.
I believe animals can live ethically. Any life that can make a choice can make one that leads to life or doesn’t lead to life (a basic concept of ethical). There are even ‘wild cats’ and other predatory animals who have been observed to choose not to kill.
Whether that is true or not, is not the point. "Might makes right" is the paradigm of the jungle. Only we have the possibility to create an ethical, caring society.
Good article, nails it on the head. I can't believe the ritualistic con still being promoted among "right-wing" and "left-wing" "pundits" that China and BRICS represent a threat to "Western civilization." The reality is they are joined at the hip with WEF and the rest who want global control. And the fact is, the driving motors of "Western civilization" are patriarchy and capitalism which propel the WEF billionaire elites plotting our penury. As to when will the real opposition emerge, the answer is never, until we decisively surmount the challenge of finding a way to live outside of patriarchy and capitalism -- which means living beyond our precious ingrained habits of body, mind, and spirit
Right. There's one game in town and the only way out is to leave town. All politicians need a fairytale or two to sell, an industrial/financial worldeater plan daubed in their stripe. I guess I'm going to have to embrace being called reactionary.
Nov 30, 2023·edited Nov 30, 2023Liked by Paul Cudenec
Very good! But, I think many of us in this audience would agree this necessary paradigm shift isn't ever likely to happen on any mass scale. Many who've become aware of these truths in recent years and decades have already moved off grid, started families au naturel on a homestead, worked diligently to set up small, planned communities, or started afresh and independently, away from most or all nonsense tech and dependence on any centralized authority, etc. They know, perhaps, the world at large can't be saved from itself.
In my younger years, there was always the impetus to "awaken the masses" which, looking back, was rather ignorant, and even arrogant. Who was I, and what the hell did I really know? All that energy that went into writing articles or essays, my "uplifting and spiritual" music, and the rest of it, is somewhat amusing at this point, even if it was quite satisfying to have an outlet for all that angst, anger, anxiety, and love for my fellow apparently sleepy humans. As I've learned and discovered (remembered) much about the nature of this reality in the ensuing decades, and especially these past 5 years, my message, motives, and meanings have changed, as it would for anyone bent on knowing what is real and true.
Many in this fantastic dissident community of errants are now coming to the fore, sharing their extensive research and astonishing evidence that our societies and civilizations are "reset" almost like clockwork. Could it be, therefore, that repeated and inevitable (perhaps forced) returns to pre-industrial (and/or post-industrial) living standards are part of the Grand Script, depending on the locale and extent of said reset?
Evidence is all around us of previous truly advanced societies, buried time and again and erased from history, while the controlling, parasitic aspects among us revise historical record, invent (in)famous historical characters, and fabricate or reshape paradigm-shifting events... even devising calendars and chronologies ex post facto to suit their needs.
We, the common, caring, loving, just-let-us-be man and woman, unconsciously carry forward in blissful ignorance these fabricated narratives, and variations on repeating themes, but there are always a few that never really buy into it... these well-read heretics and erudite rebels that are routinely ostracized, imprisoned, or executed. I think that modern worldwide censorship agendas represent the macro of this collective mirror, wherein the zeitgeist says "Hey assholes, stop shaking the snow globe! Leave us to our grand illusions."
Inevitably, somewhere down the road in perhaps a century or two, another newly powered-up and tapped-in "internet" generation of "truth seekers" unite to expose these massive lies, as another reset, controlled demolition, and forced relocation occurs... Rinse and repeat.
Perhaps too many ideas for one short comment... I guess the point to this rambling is this: don't take this all too seriously. We're just passing through.
Certainly too many ideas to reply to here! Yes, we're all just passing through but also, hopefully, also playing our small role in the shaping of history... a positive role that is, as even doing nothing is a low-level (negative) participation.
Ah, indeed Jacquelyn, and I am well acquainted with it, but the question is when it will emerge from its silent underground hiding place and dare to become visible and audible...
In my experience, that which lives underground stays underground, unless the conditions underground change. After all, it grows and thrives underground because the conditions are right there for it. The worm only surfaces with flooding rains or when the earth is ploughed.
Yeah. All im saying is in a post industrial world there would need to be a lower population. The powers that be would never allow such a society. We'd have to take it.
I've been called worse. 😂 Becoming a de-industrialised society will require some kind of collapse or cataclysm. I would love to live closer to nature again. I miss her.
“It is only when we are aware of the earth and of the earth as poetry that we truly live.”
You and I and Paul all want to arrive at that same place. It's the transition that's so troubling. Like Darren Allen, I think it's going to be awful. I hope I'm wrong and we glide down. A population adjusting naturally to resource availability is the endpoint. Back to natural fluctuation. As it should be.
To use the "scout" metaphor, when we see a major agenda item being shared by the ruling class and supposedly anti-ruling class groups, it is a red flag. I am not drawing a conclusion, I am just looking at the facts. I don't have a "side."
But it's not the same, is it? The ruling class are not anti-industrialist at all, just pretending to be in order to gain social license for their Fourth Industrial Revolution digital slave system agenda. This is one of the main points in the article, in fact.
I didn't say that they were. But the ruling class and what you are calling anti-industrialists seem to share an end point goal of reducing the human population by (pick your number) say 95%. The ruling class is going to accomplish that goal by genocide and mass sterilization, how do anti-industrialists propose to get there? Might the two groups form a coalition over that shared goal? Given the mass betrayal of most "radicals" that we have witnessed in the last 3 years to the interests of the the Globalists, it doesn't seem far fetched to me. Just reference how the environmental movement has been coopted in the last 3 decades. And it is relevant to note that the environmental movement has long had a sinister Malthusian tendency, as in the popular book the "Population Bomb" by ruling class toady Paul Ehrlich.
Thank you very much for mentioning our article Paul. Much appreciated.
I am intrigued by your postulation of a post-industrial world but would like to understand how you think a world with no industry will be able to sustain the current population numbers as far as both their "needs" and "wants".
The question for me is how a world *with* industry will be able to sustain any kind of life at all! Additionally, I see this as, ideally, a long-term process of withdrawal from industrialism. The people currently populating the world will all be dead in 100 years or so and we tend to auto-regulate reproduction in response to circumstance. Population levels have been deliberately increased under industrialism for the interests of production, consumption and profit. Without that interference, we would better adapt ourselves to the capacity of Mother Earth to nourish us.
"Population levels have been deliberately increased under industrialism for the interests of production, consumption and profit. Without that interference, we would better adapt ourselves to the capacity of Mother Earth to nourish us"
Yikes, that sounds awfully similar to what this guy is saying. You may not have meant it to be the case but it definitely is!
Real opposition is revolution. Industry is a tool, not an ideology, and can be used for good and bad. We are at our best and worst as a collective and I think that is what you are lamenting. The intention of ARC (Jordan Peterson) is good but it will not bear fruit, not like the ideas of America's founding fathers. It can't with sycophants at the helm. I pray that thinkers like you put yourself in the shoes of those founders and come up with ideas that follow their spirit, like using blockchain technology to make elections transparent and to track government spending, anything, AI. Somewhere there is a Palestinian saying give me liberty or give me death. With this global wake up call (Gaza) I'm hoping y'all are up to the task. My only contribution could ever be in real opposition. And yeah, when Peterson said 'give them hell' to Setanyahoo he broke my heart.
You'd never know from some if not most renderings of Marx (and Marxism) that his work was critical of the exploitation and alienation of industrial capitalism, and the futility of utopian schemes which seek revolution without overthrowing the means of economic production and political power which oppress us.
Excellent essay, I may put up excerpts on my own substack.. However, it's not centralized industrial state capitalism which is the driver - that's just the means. The driver for this process is the growth of capital, arising out of interest on debt. A debt/interest driven economy is an example of exponential growth, and the continuation of that is impossible on a planet with finite recoverable resources - and the centralized control needed to sustain that economy is also dependent on exponential growth, because that control structure only consumes, it does not produce. The way out lies in decentralization of power to the greatest possible extent, the end of debt financing dependent on interest payments, and a return to sustainable systems such as regenerative agriculture and the localized manufacture of goods from locally-sourced materials.
I'd be quite wary of the current crop of internet "influencers" and those who are a product of social media, who position themselves as leaders, or as members of leadership vanguards, no matter what "good" they may claim to do. This is especially the case if they were erstwhile former members of the old centralized power structures, and especially of its "intelligence community", such as Malone and Dugin... I'm glad you figured out Dugin, he has so many people fooled, but his heritage is solidly supporting the power of the centralized state over the individual, see https://tec.fsi.stanford.edu/docs/aleksandr-dugins-foundations-geopolitics
For quite some time, I've said that if you want to see what your leader looks like, go look in a mirror. Figure out your guiding principles and abide by them, you need no one else to tell you what to think or to do.
Yes, the driver is, as you say, "the growth of capital, arising out of interest on debt". And the physical means by which this growth comes about is industrialism, whose "development" is the nothing other than the development of capital. If interest on debt is the (semi-)hidden way in which capital expands, industrialism is its very visible and concrete face.
Or, to put it another way, if capital is the murderer, then industrialism is the act of murder itself. Identifying the culprit is one thing, stopping the crime is another, even more urgent, necessity!
And the act of seeking to increase return on capital, i.e. profit, in order to not go into default on debt - which provides the basis for industrialism - is the motive for the crime, the driving force. Go into default on your bonds and your interest rate goes up, skip a dividend or cancel it altogether, and stock value rapidly decreases... so you have to always increase earnings per share because a quarterly earnings report which shows flat growth - or even worse, negative growth, has bad effects on stock values and the longevity of corporate CEOs... And recessions - periods of decreased or negative growth in GDP - have bad effects on the career longevity of politicians. And all of this growth is both dependent on energy and is an exponential process, so growth requires exponential increase in the amount of energy converted from a useful form into a non-useful form - and with finite and non-renewable energetically-dense resources, this cannot be continued - there are hard limits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZA9Hnp3aV4
"The driver for this process is the growth of capital, arising out of interest on debt. A debt/interest driven economy is an example of exponential growth, and the continuation of that is impossible on a planet with finite recoverable resources - and the centralized control needed to sustain that economy is also dependent on exponential growth, because that control structure only consumes, it does not produce." - Spot on!
We need a paradigm shift. Not in terms of nature knowledge per se, but how we organise our lives, what our priorities are.
This change extends beyond merely enhancing our knowledge of nature and the environment. It fundamentally challenges and reimagines how we structure our daily lives, our communities, and our societal systems. The essence of this shift lies in reevaluating and realigning our priorities to embrace a holistic approach that integrates individual well-being, community empowerment, and environmental stewardship.
This also implies a significant transformation in our economic systems, moving away from extractive and exploitative practices towards regenerative and sustainable models. It advocates for human-centric designs and practices that respect the environment and enhance the quality of life for all.
I think this paradigm shift - or at least a start on it - can be found in Christopher Alexander's work "A Pattern Language" -https://www.patternlanguage.com/ - you can get an idea of it from this table of contents - https://www.patternlanguage.com/apl/twopanelnlb.htm ... I've had a copy since if first came out so long ago, when I was an undergrad.
I have checked the resources, thanks a lot! This exactly the stuff I am searching for!
The paradigm shift you are referring to is what I have described as Life Design. It goes beyond human-centric design to incorporate universal optimum need states that, when synchronised, maximise the potential of all life.
I am very grateful for this discussion. My peace propositions include Life Source which describes a Peace Economy (my definition of peace is the synchronisation of universal needs for all life)…but I haven’t properly understood the pervasive destructiveness of all manner of centralised power (I am too idealistic). Your sharing is optimising my consciousness. Thank you all 🙏🏼
Spot on!
The great subversion/co-optation machinery breeds a Russian doll of endless deceptions.
In this house of mirrors two words hold sway: ubiquitous duplicity.
Fantastic essay - I think that THIS is actually the key problem which the 'opposition' in general faces if we want to ever achieve anything concrete. It is strange but a lot of otherwise very skeptical people (when it comes to the 'system' at least) simply cannot fathom the idea that any effective dissident movement or organisation will be targeted for infiltration. Their refusal to believe this basically makes it inevitable - as any criticism of their new 'tribe' basically marks out the questioner themselves as a shill! I have written a bit on my Substack about how I think the gibberish spread about supposed 'Common Law' solutions amongst the truth movement (as opposed to effective mass action) is part of just such an infiltrate/discredit operation as you have described in your essay although that is just one of the numerous ways that this insidious tactic is used by the State and its agents!
We are the opposition, don't wait for someone to come along and show you the way time has come to step up to the task at hand.
It is most difficult to trust anyone outside of your inner circle. The anti-humans have indoctrinated the masses and infiltrated almost every aspect of our lives. Perhaps the best opposition to the tyrannical slavery engulfing the lands is best done on an individual level. As soon as we form groups and hierarchies, a type of cultism ensues and we find our individuality lost in the masses once again.
There is no one to lead us out of this maze. The moment you succumb to the desires of a leader, you have lost your freedom. This is how all governments work. Establish a prime leader then frighten the citizen into thinking and believing he is lost without that leader.
It is easy for the anti-humans to control the masses who for the most part all share similar thoughts, patterns and desires. The same with the anti-anti-humans (us) who will be another group to be targeted. We see the anti-humans attacking us on all levels and therefore maybe the best opposition is to resist them individually where they cannot gain control of a group.
Right on, right on! How Can It Be?
How can it be? Humanity has tolerated atrocities, crimes against humanity, censorship, wars, torture, lies/propaganda, ecocide, spying on the public, ethnocide, torture of Assange, etc. forever. Is it not clear that psychopaths/insane criminals with the Nazi/Eugenicist idealogy rule the world?
Perhaps since this has been the case for centuries, no one notices. I see the bourgeois classes living their seemingly superficial, comfortable lives, celebrating Thanksgiving, attending sporting events, preferring to ignore geopolitics and things outside their bubbles, the poor struggling for their existence, and all living for the self.
Is it so difficult to see that who we are is Life, the animating spirit that we share with all living entities. We are in the form of human with our particular kind of consciousness, which allows us to be the only animal with the possibility of living ethically. Yet we don't. Instead we live the paradigm of all the other animals ("might makes right"). This has proven to be a grave error, an abomination, not using the gifts that we have been given and we are having to pay a steep price.
I believe animals can live ethically. Any life that can make a choice can make one that leads to life or doesn’t lead to life (a basic concept of ethical). There are even ‘wild cats’ and other predatory animals who have been observed to choose not to kill.
Whether that is true or not, is not the point. "Might makes right" is the paradigm of the jungle. Only we have the possibility to create an ethical, caring society.
Great stuff. "If the future is not in some way primitive there will be no future." - John Zerzan
Good article, nails it on the head. I can't believe the ritualistic con still being promoted among "right-wing" and "left-wing" "pundits" that China and BRICS represent a threat to "Western civilization." The reality is they are joined at the hip with WEF and the rest who want global control. And the fact is, the driving motors of "Western civilization" are patriarchy and capitalism which propel the WEF billionaire elites plotting our penury. As to when will the real opposition emerge, the answer is never, until we decisively surmount the challenge of finding a way to live outside of patriarchy and capitalism -- which means living beyond our precious ingrained habits of body, mind, and spirit
Right. There's one game in town and the only way out is to leave town. All politicians need a fairytale or two to sell, an industrial/financial worldeater plan daubed in their stripe. I guess I'm going to have to embrace being called reactionary.
Very good! But, I think many of us in this audience would agree this necessary paradigm shift isn't ever likely to happen on any mass scale. Many who've become aware of these truths in recent years and decades have already moved off grid, started families au naturel on a homestead, worked diligently to set up small, planned communities, or started afresh and independently, away from most or all nonsense tech and dependence on any centralized authority, etc. They know, perhaps, the world at large can't be saved from itself.
In my younger years, there was always the impetus to "awaken the masses" which, looking back, was rather ignorant, and even arrogant. Who was I, and what the hell did I really know? All that energy that went into writing articles or essays, my "uplifting and spiritual" music, and the rest of it, is somewhat amusing at this point, even if it was quite satisfying to have an outlet for all that angst, anger, anxiety, and love for my fellow apparently sleepy humans. As I've learned and discovered (remembered) much about the nature of this reality in the ensuing decades, and especially these past 5 years, my message, motives, and meanings have changed, as it would for anyone bent on knowing what is real and true.
Many in this fantastic dissident community of errants are now coming to the fore, sharing their extensive research and astonishing evidence that our societies and civilizations are "reset" almost like clockwork. Could it be, therefore, that repeated and inevitable (perhaps forced) returns to pre-industrial (and/or post-industrial) living standards are part of the Grand Script, depending on the locale and extent of said reset?
Evidence is all around us of previous truly advanced societies, buried time and again and erased from history, while the controlling, parasitic aspects among us revise historical record, invent (in)famous historical characters, and fabricate or reshape paradigm-shifting events... even devising calendars and chronologies ex post facto to suit their needs.
We, the common, caring, loving, just-let-us-be man and woman, unconsciously carry forward in blissful ignorance these fabricated narratives, and variations on repeating themes, but there are always a few that never really buy into it... these well-read heretics and erudite rebels that are routinely ostracized, imprisoned, or executed. I think that modern worldwide censorship agendas represent the macro of this collective mirror, wherein the zeitgeist says "Hey assholes, stop shaking the snow globe! Leave us to our grand illusions."
Inevitably, somewhere down the road in perhaps a century or two, another newly powered-up and tapped-in "internet" generation of "truth seekers" unite to expose these massive lies, as another reset, controlled demolition, and forced relocation occurs... Rinse and repeat.
Perhaps too many ideas for one short comment... I guess the point to this rambling is this: don't take this all too seriously. We're just passing through.
Certainly too many ideas to reply to here! Yes, we're all just passing through but also, hopefully, also playing our small role in the shaping of history... a positive role that is, as even doing nothing is a low-level (negative) participation.
Agreed. Many courageous authors here on Substack are generating ripples and waves.
Or, we could be 'crazy' like the late Vichai Sureeyut https://enna.substack.com/p/and-another-tree-story
Amazing Polly Was The First To Expose Jordan Pretenderson!
https://rumble.com/v2bz934-dr.-jordan-petersons-wef-dreams-for-the-world-economic-forum-amazing-polly.html
https://rumble.com/v2ati30-after-the-sting-amazing-polly-takes-down-jordan-peterson.html
https://rumble.com/v2eafk4-jordan-petersons-arc-project-built-by-billionaires-amazing-polly.html
https://rumble.com/v2bceui-amazing-polly-on-jordan-peterson.html
https://rumble.com/v2e7dss-amazing-polly-new-world-economic-forum-offshoot.-arc-alliance-for-responsib.html
That opposition has been here for a bit now, Paul, you need to look a bit deeper. It grows like a mushroom, quietly underground.
Ah, indeed Jacquelyn, and I am well acquainted with it, but the question is when it will emerge from its silent underground hiding place and dare to become visible and audible...
In my experience, that which lives underground stays underground, unless the conditions underground change. After all, it grows and thrives underground because the conditions are right there for it. The worm only surfaces with flooding rains or when the earth is ploughed.
To live as a de-industrialised society however would require a huge drop in population.
I see it the other way round. In a post-industrial world, reproduction rates would naturally adjust to the resources available.
Yeah. All im saying is in a post industrial world there would need to be a lower population. The powers that be would never allow such a society. We'd have to take it.
Yep. It's the most unpalatable truth of all. Someone will be along shortly to bellow "ecofascist" at you.
I've been called worse. 😂 Becoming a de-industrialised society will require some kind of collapse or cataclysm. I would love to live closer to nature again. I miss her.
“It is only when we are aware of the earth and of the earth as poetry that we truly live.”
― Henry Beston
You and I and Paul all want to arrive at that same place. It's the transition that's so troubling. Like Darren Allen, I think it's going to be awful. I hope I'm wrong and we glide down. A population adjusting naturally to resource availability is the endpoint. Back to natural fluctuation. As it should be.
Paradoxically, this is where the Globalists and the Anarcho-primitivists agree.
What do you mean? Did you read the article properly?
My comment was intended as a reply to Dollyboy.
Oh, OK
To use the "scout" metaphor, when we see a major agenda item being shared by the ruling class and supposedly anti-ruling class groups, it is a red flag. I am not drawing a conclusion, I am just looking at the facts. I don't have a "side."
But it's not the same, is it? The ruling class are not anti-industrialist at all, just pretending to be in order to gain social license for their Fourth Industrial Revolution digital slave system agenda. This is one of the main points in the article, in fact.
I didn't say that they were. But the ruling class and what you are calling anti-industrialists seem to share an end point goal of reducing the human population by (pick your number) say 95%. The ruling class is going to accomplish that goal by genocide and mass sterilization, how do anti-industrialists propose to get there? Might the two groups form a coalition over that shared goal? Given the mass betrayal of most "radicals" that we have witnessed in the last 3 years to the interests of the the Globalists, it doesn't seem far fetched to me. Just reference how the environmental movement has been coopted in the last 3 decades. And it is relevant to note that the environmental movement has long had a sinister Malthusian tendency, as in the popular book the "Population Bomb" by ruling class toady Paul Ehrlich.
But the environmentalist movement has been co-opted into a pro-industrialist direction, not an anti-industrialist one!
Thank you very much for mentioning our article Paul. Much appreciated.
I am intrigued by your postulation of a post-industrial world but would like to understand how you think a world with no industry will be able to sustain the current population numbers as far as both their "needs" and "wants".
The question for me is how a world *with* industry will be able to sustain any kind of life at all! Additionally, I see this as, ideally, a long-term process of withdrawal from industrialism. The people currently populating the world will all be dead in 100 years or so and we tend to auto-regulate reproduction in response to circumstance. Population levels have been deliberately increased under industrialism for the interests of production, consumption and profit. Without that interference, we would better adapt ourselves to the capacity of Mother Earth to nourish us.
"Population levels have been deliberately increased under industrialism for the interests of production, consumption and profit. Without that interference, we would better adapt ourselves to the capacity of Mother Earth to nourish us"
Yikes, that sounds awfully similar to what this guy is saying. You may not have meant it to be the case but it definitely is!
https://rumble.com/vz6yqt-dennis-meadows-club-of-rome-humanity-is-the-enemy.html
No, humanity is not the enemy. Industrialism is the enemy of humanity and the natural world to which we belong.
Ok. Just making sure. Thanks for clarifying :)
Real opposition is revolution. Industry is a tool, not an ideology, and can be used for good and bad. We are at our best and worst as a collective and I think that is what you are lamenting. The intention of ARC (Jordan Peterson) is good but it will not bear fruit, not like the ideas of America's founding fathers. It can't with sycophants at the helm. I pray that thinkers like you put yourself in the shoes of those founders and come up with ideas that follow their spirit, like using blockchain technology to make elections transparent and to track government spending, anything, AI. Somewhere there is a Palestinian saying give me liberty or give me death. With this global wake up call (Gaza) I'm hoping y'all are up to the task. My only contribution could ever be in real opposition. And yeah, when Peterson said 'give them hell' to Setanyahoo he broke my heart.
You'd never know from some if not most renderings of Marx (and Marxism) that his work was critical of the exploitation and alienation of industrial capitalism, and the futility of utopian schemes which seek revolution without overthrowing the means of economic production and political power which oppress us.